Curse

ubermancer · Jan 23, 2007, 07:18 AM // 07:18

Wow, someone doesnt know what pathos is, but used the word anyways.

Funny.

Iuris · Jan 23, 2007, 07:35 AM // 07:35

Well, not being a long time player I know I'm supposed to shut up and watch the greybeards do the talking, but maybe, just maybe, I do have something to say.

I started playing GW before NF came out, but after Factions. I strictly decided to finish Factions first before going to Nightfall to keep in sequence. And, surprise surprise: I already did most of my playing with henchmen. Henchmen, I might add, when there were no flags to place yet! The camaraderie the original poster was talking of was long gone by then, before the first hero was born. Because I couldn't take all the abuse and the incompetence. I'm a reasonable player, at best, but I'm willing to look at the forums for beginners articles and similar. The game is full of idiots who aren't. I want to get things done. And then someone in the group who promised to stay just caps his skill and leaves.

The heroes are not the problem. They are the solution to a problem, and by their existence, they show the problem in all its hideous glory.

Omega X · Jan 23, 2007, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

I've played since the WPE and overall, I'm pleased with the games' evolution. But there is only 1 thing that I thought brought Guild Wars one step backwards. IMO, Heroes were bad addition to Guild Wars coz the game is geared to be a team game and sometimes you gotta force people to work together as a team.

Heroes are only slightly different than Henchmen. As in, they are customizable. You take out Heroes, you have to take out Henchmen.

Which means, a loss of player base because you have NO CHOICE but to rely on others. AND a lot of people know what that means, including myself. That would be effectively driving the game into the grave.

Once that happens, there is no such thing as soloing when you want to because Guild Wars is a forced team based game. A lot less people will be inclined to play because of the lack of progress, even MORE class elitism, much more bad attitudes of other players just to name a few. We have much of this now but it would be twice as intensive once the hench/hero is removed.

Forcing people to do anything in general is a bad step in a game like this. That means that the person will find ways NOT to do things if they feel that it isn't fun or they just didn't want to.

I believe that the mistake was interweaving heroes into the storyline as "required" and having to level them up. IT should have always been an option to get them at the level cap.

NeoSaber · Jan 23, 2007, 09:48 AM // 09:48

Hmm... I'm a long time player, so maybe I should chime in on this thread too.

For the record: I started with E34E, then WPE, 4 BWEs, and I've been playing consistently since prophecies released... back when prophecies was still called Guild Wars.

To the OP, although I tend to agree with your premise (PvE becoming a chore), I disagree with just about all the details/reasons you provided. I only want to focus on one thing right now though, the issue of heroes.

It's been stated by many people, not just in this thread, or forum, and I even hear it in game still: PUGs suck. The "wammo tales" are endless, and usually the moral of the story is "too many players are idiots". I don't think it's actually a problem that the players are bad though. If a game is setup in such a way that every PUG has a game ruining 'n00b' in it, then there's a flaw in the game itself. I think that flaw is the over importance of team coordination.

Long before Nightfall came out, ArenaNet said (specifically Jeff Strain I think... someone correct me if I'm wrong) that their data showed most people played alone with henchmen, or with a friend or two and filled the rest of the group with henchmen. Heroes were added so that this wouldn't be frustrating any more. Henchmen have pathetic builds, sub-optimal equipment, and are dumb as rocks. Yet people would rather play with them then the 'n00bs' who shared all those qualities too. So what was the difference? Simply put: Communication.

Now to put it not so simply.

The game mechanics of Guild Wars exist in a way that different team members play completely different roles. No one is completely self sufficient. You've got healers, damage dealers, supporters, etc. These roles don't change on the fly. In battle a healing monk isn't going to suddenly re-spec as a smiter or something. So what happens when a healer notices an enemy who needs to die? He's got to tell the damage dealer obviously. How does that scenario differ with heroes and PUGs?

Hero method: Player (a monk) targets mob, clicks hero's target icon. Problem solved.

PUG method: Player (a monk), trys to call the target. Calls target a few times. Types in chat "Someone kill that Mob!" etc. Assuming it even gets the other teammates attention, it still takes longer than clicking one icon.

Essentially, heroes and henchmen automate what is probably the hardest aspect of Guild Wars, the team coordination. It all becomes an extension of your keyboard. I don't need to type things out in chat (and I type really slow), I can just flag a hero somewhere in a second. If I need a warrior to move somewhere to defend something, I flag Koss there instead of trying to type it out or spam a target call and hope everyone just understands what I'm trying to say.

Guild Wars isn't very friendly on the team coordination front. To make matters worse, battles occur in seconds. People use TS or Vent in PvP because talking is a lot faster and clearer than typing. It's really the only way to win. In PvE, people relied on henchmen despite their flaws because of this. ArenaNet made Heroes to help make PvE fun to play instead of frustratingly slow. Now that I think about it, they're kind of a band aid for the real problem, but may offer a better solution in the long run.

To relate a story of my own for a moment. A few weeks back I needed to collect Putrid Cysts to get collector weapons for a bunch of my heroes. I decided to just replay missions like Vizunah Square and Tahnnakai Temple over and over to get them. So I take my Dervish and heroes to Vizunah, get some henchmen, enter and start playing. I got paired with a hench team, got masters, went back again. Got paired with a 1 player + henchmen team, got masters, and went back again. After a few more loops like this, it hit me: with these heroes it doesn't matter what the other team is, we'll win this. Then I got even bolder, I cut a henchmen and accepted a random invite when putting my team together. Confirmed with the other person that they didn't mind playing with my hero/hench team, and we were off. Got masters again there too.

I realized that between me and my heroes/henchmen, I could carry an extra player along, and whether or not they were good or bad it didn't matter. One person couldn't kill the team when I was there with heroes, so I started looking at random invites with some more optimism. The issue there, I think, is that team coordination and dependancy is so important in Guild Wars, that if I could assure that with a few heroes, even one of Factions' most frustrating missions was fun. If ArenaNet ever gets rid of the hero limit, I'll probably be able to optimize enough to let two people come with me instead of just one.

I think this is why PUGs really have such a bad reputation and why heroes are so necessary right now. Strangers won't have the split second coordination needed to play this game to the fullest. I kind of cringe whenever I see someone saying how "heroes ruined the game" or "Anet needs to get rid of heroes". I know I don't want to lose such a critical aspect of gameplay that started to re-invigorate Guild Wars for me (before the DoA crushed my hopes for this game...).

So what about playing with people? I don't think the answer is to force it, it's to stop forcing it. Despite the fact that people can hero/hench just about everything (my Dervish got all 3 protector and GMC titles that way, hurray!), they still need a team. That need is so strong, because of the gameplay, that many have turned to hero/henching their way through the game to get that critical team work. The only ones who can do that with all people are good guilds, using voice coms of some kind. That can't be expected of the rest of the player base. Not because "they all suck", but because the game just doesn't support that coordination naturally. It probably never can. I can give a hero all the instructions they need with a few mouse clicks, I can't do that with a person.

The only way I see PUGs really working in this game is for team coordination to be de-emphasized, in PvE anyway. Self sufficient builds, like a healing monk who can fight well too, or a warrior who can heal someone when needed could be really useful for this, but aren't likely under the current game design. So we need another solution.

Ironically, the often hated two team missions of Factions may be the perfect template for this. For example, what if 4 players, each with their own 3 heroes, could team up for a mission. At that point, you could in theory have 4 self sufficient "cells", working together losely as a team. No need for great coordination between the groups, but they are all there, helping each other in general. Or just go direct from the Factions template. Two teams, each 1 player with 7 heroes, randomly paired with another team of 1 player and seven heroes. Two self sufficient groups, able to work with each other to get through the mission. The needed teamwork is provided by the heroes/henchmen, while the players can work together at a "slower" pace.

Don't get me wrong now, I'm a loner at heart and I always want it possible to completely hench everything. Everyone should be able to jump into any PvE area and play without wasting time with a team in my opinion. However, even I don't mind playing with others sometimes when I know they can't ruin my fun. My Dervish's hero/hench team in Vizunah Square is typically good enough that as long as the other team can keep Togo alive until I get there, we're all getting Master reward. I found that actually made things a little more fun. I don't need the other team any more, they're a bonus and I like having the extra company.

Get rid of the team dependancy, and I think PUGs might start making a comeback. Then again, I might just be totally crazy.

xXa1 · Jan 23, 2007, 10:21 AM // 10:21

i agree with the OP, exact same train of thoughts ... even with the heroes which he does state is both good and bad. yeah alesia was a horrible healer and cynn or orion would use fire storm waaaaay too late, but these were reasons why people used player-only-groups as much as possible in missions and this is how the guilds in the community came about.

i quit a month after nightfall was released. it was just too much of a chore, like the OP said, for me to take my all my 5 characters through ... my necro main was enough and that ended my adventure here.

Nickhimself · Jan 23, 2007, 10:34 AM // 10:34

I've been playing GW for about 7 months now. I've accumulated almost 1,700 hours of playtime during these past 7 months.

I quit about a week ago. Why? I ran Dzagonur Bastion with a group of people LFG in the zone. We failed. Attempted again with the same group. Failed. Attempted again with a NEW group. Failed. This continued until I think I was on attempt #9 or 10. After the next failure, I decided to give up on humanity all together, and Hero it.

Masters. First try with Heroes. That disgusted me. The game is so dumbed down now, you don't even need to be a good player to finish a mission. That's why you see more and more people using skills that should NEVER go into that mission. Ever. And then they start caps-locking on you for calling them on it.

OMG YOU DONT EVEN NO HOW 2 PLAY NUB LOL <---this is how they type

Seriously. The Hero system is good. Hell, it's great! But...when you can rely on this new system so much that you personally, don't need to know what's going on and STILL finish the game...something's wrong.

I could rant for hours about all of the aspects of the game I feel need much improvement, but I felt like touching base with the one that gives me the most grief. Since NF was released, i've noticed about 75% less LFG chatter in towns. Seriously.

Sigh. I really hope they do something soon to re-kindle interest in this game for me.

I don't mind paying monthly (whenever they start charging) for Vanguard...but i'd much rather stay with a game where all of my characters are fully developed and powerful. Too bad it feels like i'm clocking in for work everytime I click Log In.

This is me logging in to do anything in GW anymore

Omega X · Jan 23, 2007, 10:42 AM // 10:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nickhimself

I quit about a week ago. Why? I ran Dzagonur Bastion with a group of people LFG in the zone. We failed. Attempted again with the same group. Failed. Attempted again with a NEW group. Failed. This continued until I think I was on attempt #9 or 10. After the next failure, I decided to give up on humanity all together, and Hero it.

Masters. First try with Heroes. That disgusted me. The game is so dumbed down now, you don't even need to be a good player to finish a mission. That's why you see more and more people using skills that should NEVER go into that mission. Ever. And then they start caps-locking on you for calling them on it.

OMG YOU DONT EVEN NO HOW 2 PLAY NUB LOL <---this is how they type

Seriously. The Hero system is good. Hell, it's great! But...when you can rely on this new system so much that you personally, don't need to know what's going on and STILL finish the game...something's wrong.

I don't mind paying monthly (whenever they start charging) for Vanguard...but i'd much rather stay with a game where all of my characters are fully developed and powerful.

Yeah, the thing that was wrong is that the groups you were in were dumber than the AI.

I've been tracking Vanguard for a while now. That MMO looks interesting, and I plan to keep an eye on it until the details for Chapter 4 come forward. Its really a make or break chapter for me sorry to say.

=DNC=Trucker · Jan 23, 2007, 10:58 AM // 10:58

There are some issues I agree with, and some I do not, but I'll try to only comment on the ones I do.

PvE vs PvP
========
There's room for both, and it offers a great variety for a larger audience. My suggestion to ANET is to make them less dependent on each other. If something in PvP is overpowered, does that mean a PvE player should have another skill turned into something useless? The same things applies vice-versa, just because a 600 monk is farming out in PvE, why should the PvP monk look at spirit bond and think "yup never going to use that!" I don't have any thoughts on how to fix this, except for decoupling of these two worlds in some way.

The Fellowship is Broken
==================
Definitely something apparent, but I won't blame it on heroes. I agree with Iuris. You have to offer the casual player the options to still play the game. No, this problem is something else. The decline of this fellowship is directly related to your ability to play the game /without/ PUGs. Why? Go to Unwaking Waters at a non-peak time and tell me what you see (you should see nothing, in fact the last time I went there to do the mission I was the only one in the entire town). I used to love getting in PUG's, now its a chore! Why would I want to log in and wait for 45 minutes just to finally get a group together! Spreading the entire population of GW across 4 continents will only make this worse.

For the love of Money
================
You can't destroy the real game for the real crowd just because some people are farming and getting rich. Good for them... its fake money. Perhaps ANet should not make "gold" such a big part of the game? After all, if you stick a trader in every town where you can (now) buy anything you want in the game, you are only encouraging this type of behavior, not discouraging it. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying completely ditch the idea of trading, but if any random with 5 million ectos can buy anything in the game, doesn't that discourage diversity and encourage a spoiled market? and at that same time doesn't it fail to motivate your average player to go out and seek these items themselves? Instead everyone is just going to A) buy it, or B) throw on some running shoes and farm the 1 guy that drops the item(s)... hmm a game driven by gold and farming. gee I wonder why.

Deja Vu!
======
I like the word GRIND being used to describe how things are. Is it really fun to kill the same groups over and over? Its disgusting! What you see in prophecies: group of Avicara. 3 braves, maybe a couple fierce, maybe a guile. next group: 1 brave, 3 fierce, and an ardent. next group: 6 mountain trolls. next group: some herders. Get the idea? fun! variety! Now, what is factions and nightfall?? first group: 1 kournan priest, 1-2 kournan seer, 1-2 kournan phalanx, 1-2 warlock, 1-2 scribe. Next group: 1 kournan priest, 1-2 kournan seer, 1-2 kournan phalanx, 1-2 warlock, 1-2 scribe. um.. ok I've had enough after 1/4 of the game! Anyway, couldn't agree more and I really hope they remedy this for ch. 4.

Anyway, some of my ideas I was thinking of to help make PVE more enjoyable:

Chests. The whole chest system used to be motivating to actually play the game after you beat the walk through, but with the market flood there's no drive. hey I'll just buy it! I challenge everyone to actually add up the $ they spend on keys, then add up their returns. Suddenly buying items isn't only easier and faster, but perhaps cheaper! Buried treasures... nice rewards but in fixed locations? c'mon. Give us motivation to go "run" instead of explore and kill, then give every group out there mind freeze or imagined burden. lame...
Customized items. I would love to see more treats in this game that aren't marketable. More diversity, something that makes players feel different from the guy next to him. ...and I'm not talking about inscriptions - thats just a way for anyone to "buy" exactly what they want, instead of playing the game to earn it.
Parallel questing. We all love to play multiple characters, but can you really do the same mission 5-10 times with your 5-10 characters? Talk about GRIND. I thought it was refreshing to see this in Nightfall and Factions (2 paths). We need more of this, perhaps with randomness? Maybe as I am playing my warrior, Varesh is a healer, and then I play my Mesmer and to my surprise, she uses necro skills! Just some ideas to remove the Deja-Vu-ness of this game.
PvE/PVP mixes. Factions had a few fun things such as Alliance battles and Fort Aspenwood that I thought were really fun. Almost like a game within a game. I'd love to see more of this stuff
Elite missions. I went to DoA and spent a good 2-3 hours fighting some real badies. Someone want to tell me why I am getting a white 12-19 dmg sword as a drop? and a +9 energy idol? seriously that is pathetic... not even max damage stuff. I probably sold my entire loot for 600gold. I'd get better treats killing charr outside ascalon in 10 minutes than the 3 hours of wasted time I spent in there.

many others I am sure nobody is interested in reading cos my post is way too long...

dwc89 · Jan 23, 2007, 11:32 AM // 11:32

Been playing for around 16 months. In that time I have learned how to play a few classes rather well, time played and all that. Have done some bonehead things in missions, in UW or FoW, etc.

The thing is I learned, and I learned from a very( to me anyway) experienced player who I met while trying to get through Thunderhead Keep, when it was actually tough to get through if you were newer to the game. This person taught me how to trap UW, how FoW worked, taught me not only the skills and equipment that worked but why they worked. And also laughed with me when I made the bonehead pull of all time in FoW. Point here is that someone took the time to teach me things beyond just getting through the game.

My first character finished prophecies in Droks armor, minor vigor rune and a non max dmg bow. I think you get my point here.

When factions came out, to my dismay and my delight, you could get at weaponsmiths and collectors perfectly modded weapons, shields, etc. All of a sudden you could get with little to no effort something that was coveted by many - just add a mod or 2 and there you go.

The other thing about factions was the 12 hour level 20 wonders, made pugs interesting to say the least.

So NF introduced heroes, good in many ways and probably bad in a couple. The good outways the bad in my opinion. For the most part a friend and I teamed up with our heroes through NF.

My friend and I have ventured in FoW with heroes, done sorrows furnace runs with Heroes (B/P build) and capped spiders for 4 of our ranger heroes in UW. It was and is fun - just load a build and go. Oh yeah, we did a tombs B/P run as well.

I still pug as I find it enjoyable sometimes. Have learned to keep from typing nonconstructive things - everyone was new(er). And I just get ready to kite a lot when some don't watch the aggro circle, have only 1 interupt, etc. And yes, I cringe at " Oh, Chest!" as whomever makes a dash in its direction.

The game has changed since I first spawned in pre-searing, but then so has my ability to play this game. My main character is 20,000xp short of 8 million xp and from 0xp to now I have learned to play some.

Do I like GWs? Yes. Do I like all things in GWs? No. When I stop enjoying this game I will no longer play. There are many on my friends list who reached that point already - long time players who no longer play for whatever reason.

Anyway, I went on a bit. I did create a monk again because of heroes - they don't yell if you miss a heal and more importantly don't run off and expect to be taken care of, die and then start going off on you.

Oh yeah, almost forgot - having that fancy green doesn't make you a better player

Gusnana1412 · Jan 23, 2007, 02:10 PM // 14:10

For the Record: Been playing Guild Wars since WPE (play using my roommate account), and brough Guild Wars CE 3 weeks after release.

Very Good OP I would say, also a good feedback from others and pointing out the good things and bad things about Guild Wars since release to public test. I would like to say this threat as a Big Picture of Guild Wars and would like ANet/Guild Wars team have a deep look into it as Quality Assurance for Long Term period.

To add up, I came up with some RAW Idea concerning "farmer".

Tax.

Introduce Tax Points into player account. Tax Point will be needed for every transaction between player that exceed 10.000 gold (10k).

How it works:
Every time you make transaction item(s) or gold with other people, both will need to pay 10% Tax. Both people need to pay 10% Tax for every item(s) and/or gold that they going to trade. They need to pay Tax if the value of the transaction exceed 10.000 gold (10K).

How to calculate the Tax:
Whenever you and/or other party click "Submit Offer" button, the Tax calculation start, it will get the current price from NPC as if you sell the item(s) to NPC, then if the amounts of item(s) in gold exceed 10.000 gold (10K), 10% Tax will kick in and show it up in the trade bar. Both party needs to have enough Tax Points to finish the transaction.

How to obtain Tax Points:
Every gold drop from a monster you gain the same amount of Tax Points and every quest reward that give you gold it also add up into Tax Points, not only your own reward but also your other party member reward will add up your Tax Points.

Note:
- Tax Points is base account; character with in the same account will share the same amount of Tax Points.
- Tax Points is not trade able.
- Only applied for transaction between players that exceed 10.000 gold.
- Item that doesn't belong to special NPC (Dye Trader, Material Trader, etc) will use NPC Merchant Price.

Kook~NBK~ · Jan 23, 2007, 02:51 PM // 14:51

PVE vs PvP - Who Wins?
====

Quote:

Truthfully, the dedicated PvE players in the game find that there is not nearly enough attention given to the PvE elements of the game. Every time I read a GW Website update, some new feature coming out, or skill rebalances...it seems that PvE considerations are almost an afterthought...and only after things are broken for PvE-ers, do they get fixed, with a 'we are sorry'. If this were an isolated incident, I could forgive and forget. However, it happens time and time again, and after a while, one cannot help but wonder if the Arena-Net staff even thinks of the PvE crowd at all.

It feels like any changes or new content is thrown at us, like a piece of meat meant to shut us up and keep us from howling too loud. This could be just my perspective, but that is how it FEELs.

Aren't you glad that instead of doing the same old skill balancing act - no testing, no opportunity for player feedback, etc. that they actually presented it to the player base as a test where everyone (PvE and PvP) has a chance to give feedback on the PROPOSED changes?

Quote:

The Fellowship is Broken
====

There are several reasons for this situation, and Heros and Henchies play a big part in it. But, there are a couple of other factors that have only been lightly touched upon or hinted at.

1. Guilds: After nearly 2 years, many, many guilds have solidified into large groups (30+ members), giving their members a good player base for getting groups together to help each others out. Communications have gone from in-game chat to either the private guild chat or, more often, guilds use TS / Vent. to chat. It's easier to talk to people you're already at least aquainted with that are scattered across the GW world using these methods.

2. Alliances - Ahh, an even bigger pool of people to contact for grouping up and doing things with! My guild formed an alliance with a couple of long time (pre-GW, even) gaming groups who we consider friends and allies simply to be able to get in touch with each other via alliance chat to go questing together.

3. Friends list - If I'm not chatting with my guildies or allies, I've got quite a few friends that I can PM anywhere in the game. It comes from playing the game since the beginning, and meeting people as I went along. I'm sure that most long time players have built up pretty good friends lists.

4. Rude jackasses - Why the hell does anyone want to chat on the public channel when it's hard to even ask a simple question ("Where's storage?" - often asked in Droknar's Forge) without getting called a stupid noob? Or, when you ask a question in-game, you get "look it up on Guildwiki." I'm sorry, if you don't know the answer, don't say anything! (same goes for these forums - answer the question and THEN refer them to guildwiki for further info!)

And the "PUGs suck!" mentality really, really annoys me. Maybe, just maybe if all the l33t PvEers would not leave the PUGs to the n00bs and do more pugging, then the quality of PUGs would go up dramatically. - But, IMHO, PUGs aren't as bad as they're potrayed anyway (I may just be lucky, I've had more success with PUGs than failures.)

Quote:

Deja Vu!

I agree with what you have to say about Tyria.

I agree with what you have to say about Cantha - I took my main character through it that was the end of it for me (but I do like the AB's).

I disagree with your views on mainland Elona. Yeah, it's all pretty much arid landscape. BUT there is so much beauty incorporated into it and it's diverse enough to make it a pleasure to roam around in. In Prophecies, there was a "WOW! factor" when exploring new areas, and it was, IMHO, restored in Nightfall.

As for missions, someone said something about the repetitiveness of having to fight the same things over and over being a drag. It is. One of my favorite missions of all the chapters is Iron Mines of Molandune, because it has a wider variety of enemies than any other mission - There's giants, trolls, Azure shadows, stone summit, mursaat all in one mission - good stuff. The Nightfall missions have quite a bit of variety to them too. ( I was hoping for more "blowing stuff up" like in the first mission - LOL). I enjoy the humor they put into them, the varying requirements to achieve masters, and the continuity of the story-line. If I never see another "afflicted" I'll be a happy camper.

Chet Ingram Kabak · Jan 23, 2007, 04:43 PM // 16:43

I am not sure about the Tax system...it seems rather complicated.

I think the theory would need more explanation, so that we understand it better. My personal feeling is that Arena-Net has been misdirecting their efforts to curb farming by large, complicated methods that alter the entire gamescape....when a short, simple solution would probably be more effective.

Much like Prohibition in the 1920's, the anti-farming code in Guild Wars is just creating a 'mafia' of gold farmers and item sellers, trying to supply the masses with the things they want. It creates an environment that gold farmers thrive in. Restricting access to getting items means that Joe Casual Player cannot afford to get the items he wants, because of inflation. Joe may want to go and earn money, but the anti-farming code makes this increasingly difficult for him to do, so he decides to buy it instead.

Now to play devil's advocate: pumping more money into the system by way of unrestricting farming, would just cause inflation to go up.

There are no easy answers here, but I've already given my idea (limiting large gold transfers per account per 24hr period). The more ideas we put here, the better chance we have to address everyone's concerns, and find a solution that works better for everyone.

Quote:

I disagree with your views on mainland Elona. Yeah, it's all pretty much arid landscape. BUT there is so much beauty incorporated into it and it's diverse enough to make it a pleasure to roam around in. In Prophecies, there was a "WOW! factor" when exploring new areas, and it was, IMHO, restored in Nightfall.

I don't totally disagree with you. There are parts of Elona I do like. The Hidden City, for instance. Still, It is less about the terrain itself, and more about the fact that I am railroaded into doing the same quests and missions over and over, in order, that I do not like.

I am not a fan of having new characters ran to new places, IF that player has never been there before. You should play the story of the game, first. But once a player has been there, and done that, they should have the option of shortcutting it. Here's my idea for a compromise, let me know what you think about it.

Once a player has taken one of their characters through the entire chapter, after beating the game, there should be some kind of reward for this, that allows their characters from other chapters to bypass certain areas.
For instance: A developed character can make it to Sulferous Wastes without any trouble...but you cannot pass beyond it without doing the mission to tame the worms ( besides, you might actually want your character to be able to ride in the worms!). You cannot do this, however, until you have finished all the previous missions.

Instead of this, I think an easy method of fixing the problem is to allow each mission to be 'unlocked', once done. Any character from other chapters on the account could then do that mission at any time, with no prerequisites needed, other than actually reaching that town or outpost. They could run there, adventure there, or do the quests at their leisure.

I think small details like this, could make a large impact on how people feel about chapters. It was the same situation in Kaineng City, when you were required to do every mission and primary quest, before the gate even opened up for you. This forced people to do parts of the game they didnt like, over and over and over again. It made it GRIND. Guild Wars is supposed to reduce grind, it was one of the principles they marketed for the game. A few simple changes could go a long way. I hope people do not mistake me in 'hating the chapter'...I hate some things in the chapter, and would like the option to not repeat them. We know it's possible, since they did it originally in Tyria.

Kryth · Jan 23, 2007, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Heroes should be limited to 1... as in Diablo II - you have 1 hero to work with.... not an entire team of them.

My thoughts exactly.

Well I have a some things to share about A.Net and the game myself.
There's something I feel sorry about, and I say it with all my sincerity. When one looks at this thread, or other threads, there are so many complaints and issue discussions that I think we are making the Devs think that they have made a big mistake when they decided to develop a game like Guild Wars. That's why I want to tell them (if any of them is reading this that is) that they made a successful game, and that is why people are trying so hard to make it better. Call me pantsy but if I were working day and night in the dev staff, to keep the game up and running, meanwhile designing new stuff for upcoming campaigns, the moment I read these I would be devastated. I would ask myself; "are we really that bad?"

Therefore I want to say that we are just offering these arguments to make an already good game even better. Many of you will probably say "yeah yeah ofcourse, what else would this be for?". I needed to give this explanation because of one of Gaile's last posts about her complaint on the matter of "nerfing/balancing". Those who read it will know. I really felt bad for her/them when I digested what she was trying to tell us.

These complaints (actually suggestions) shouldn't make you deter from your development, on the contrary they shuold provoke you to create better stuff.

After all, yesterday's good is becoming tomorrow's boring. The devs certainly reached a wide community with the game, but to keep that community and reach a wider one, is through revolutionary evolutions. I ask of you developers now, to look into what we have been maturely talking about in this thread and evalute them as if we are working for Guild Wars. Cuz even tho we may not officially be working for you, we are metaphorically your employees, who are trying to make the game better just as much as your employees at the HQ.

Kakumei · Jan 24, 2007, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubermancer

words words words that don't really need to be quoted

This should be the OP--I feel it has a much better tone and style. Instead of my kneejerk reaction being to search this argument for a flaw--like it was with Chet Ingram Kabak's--my reaction here is to tend to agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubermancer

Oh, and get Apocalyptica's version of Tool's Schizm. It is an unexpectantly classical instrumental version without any vocals.

Get the whole album. It's phenomenal.

Polarbear1492 · Jan 24, 2007, 03:42 AM // 03:42

I have been playing GW for around 20 months now.
What I have to say is that I'm most disappointed not in how things are going in game, but the fact that ANet and their respective public people (IE Gaile) don't even respond to the numerous threads regarding GWs slow but sure downfall.
Don't get me wrong. I love this game.
I must agree with the general consensus that change must occur. The most frustrating thing is, ANet doesn't even seem to care. The weekend events seem almost random. The least they can do is post a "We'll consider this" or even a "Sorry, that's not possible" or the like.
And yet, they ignore the cries of their most loyal players.
I think that is the true reason why people leave. No matter what, it is basic human psychology to want to be heard. When people who have put a part of their lives in to this game and try to get it fixed just to end up with NO response at all, neither positive nor negative, why would they want to stick with it?
ANet has done a ALOT with PvP (and even PvE) with all the skill changes, I will admit, but the COUNTLESS people who have posted threads like this remain unheard. People who have legitimate concerns not for specific problems but for GW as a whole.
If there IS a ANet let them repost now! xD

Tortoise · Jan 24, 2007, 04:19 AM // 04:19

@ the op.

When I see actual numbers foretelling the doom of GW, I'll believe it. If you've been around since betas then you know people have also been posting posts like yours. Most of them had the exact same tone yours had, had some of the exact same arguments yours had. So far there has never been a sign of dwindling sale numbers.

What makes your post different? Why are your prophecies true?

Frankly: I'm with Rieselle. GW has only gotten better and better. After playing a game for 2 years you're bound to get tired of it eventually. GW isn't life's answers to boredom. It's just a great game.

P.S Cut out the anti-pvp part of your post please. It lowers the quality of your post significantly. Stop and actually consider the other side of view. PvEers get a new continent in every expansion. What do PvPers get? Right... 4 guildhalls. You can say what you want but contentwise PvEers get alot more for their dime then PvPers get.
You nor I want this thread to end in the same kind of drama those things always end up in. You've been along long enough to realize both groups have to make sacrifices. Stop acting as though PvE is PvP's sacrificial lamb. It isn't.

Shadow of Light · Jan 24, 2007, 08:52 AM // 08:52

Some parts I agree on, some parts I don't. I haven't been playing for as long as you, I don't think, but long enough to have finished the game with all my original character slots before Factions came out.

====
The Fall of Camelot
====

A lot of people are suffering from Guild Wars overdose, I think. Call it overexposure. My guild were talking about it recently, and most of us agree our enthusiasm is dying after three chapters, citing various reasons (some of which you've mentioned). I mostly think those of us who feel this way need to take a break and play something else for a while, but if the reasons for our 'disgruntlement' stem from actual mechanics and the current culture of the game... well, who knows when (or if) these will change.

====
PVE vs PvP - Who Wins?
====

I confess I haven't played PvP more than a couple of times since Nightfall came out. I enjoy the occasions when I do PvP, but am primarily a PvE person.

I disagree that PvP gets more attention than PvE. I can't really explain why.

There are PvP events and PvE events... to be honest I don't pay much attention to either (excepting Wintersday, Halloween and other 'big' events... which catered to both PvE and PvP).

I only shrug and adapt to skill changes. It's an online game, so mechanics will always be tweaked one way or another.

====
The Fellowship is Broken
====

Quote:

During the preview of Nightfall, I witnessed something I NEVER saw in Guild Wars until that day.

An entire town of people, all with (4) above their heads...and the public chat was absolutely silent. A full Mission district, with no one talking at all? I could not believe it. I thought I had hit some kind of surreal moment in time, where everyone in the district was AFK at the same time. But people were moving. Running here and there to merchants and such, so they couldnt be AFK.

I just had to quote this bit, because this is exactly what I experienced when first going through Nightfall, and it struck me in a similar fashion. Well done.

To the point of this section, Heroes have their good points and bad points, both of which have been discussed ad nauseum. My first time through Nightfall (with my lev 20 Tyrian Monk) I henched as much as I could until I discovered I was actually forced to use Heroes to proceed in the game.

It came as an unpleasant shock when I reached the Con. Docks mission, joined a full team of human players... then had to watch as the party leader was forced to boot one of his team-mates to make way for an AI Hero.

I reach the mainland and return to using Henchmen. But when I discover that more quests and missions will be requiring Heroes, I believe I have no choice but to try and level the little bastards.

*sigh*

Don't get me wrong. I like Heroes. I think they are very useful and are a good addition to the game, overall. But I think Nightfall handled their inclusion very poorly. :/

====
For the love of Money
====

I can't comment much on the economy. While I think I was around before SF opened, the inclusion of greens went over my head (at the time, I didn't take much notice of 'new additions' or fan forums). I still happily use blue collector items and tweak them to my own preferences. If people want to pay an absurd sum of money for golds or greens, that's up to them. I don't play the market much. I tend to sell items I think/know have value, but rarely buy anything more exotic than 15k armour (of which I have a set for a few of my characters... thanks to people paying absurd sums of money for golds I find through casual play rather than farming

).

The bot-farmers bother me more, because Anet has stated the use of certain programs is illegal, yet those using them still run rampant. I don't know what methods Anet use to ban such people, so I will reserve judgement. Obviously it's more complex than simply logging in to a farming 'hot spot', watching repetitive behaviour and whipping out the Stick of Banning +1.

i love you

/jump

=====
Farmer Joe
=====

Quote:

Afterall....who wants to see everyone standing around in Obsidian Armor, just like those Chinese gold farmers...just because they could buy it, and not because they earned it.

To be completely honest... it doesn't bother me at all. I don't care what computer graphic they wear, or whether or not they earned it. I don't have Obsidian Armour, and don't know if I'll ever buy a set for a similar reason why I am happy to use collector weapons: status symbols don't impress me. I'll buy something because I like what it looks like, not because it's the most expensive thing money can buy and I want to flaunt the fact I have money to burn.

The real argument is that bot-farmers (or the beloved Aspenwood Faction Farmers) ultimately get something for nothing (ie. letting their computer do the work), and that is something that irritates me, yes. I doubt GW is unique in this area, though I wish something visible was being done about the problem.

However, this section does not deter me from playing GW in the slightest. It just puts me off a certain percentage of players in the game (and I can tolerate 'honest' bot-farmers and gold-ebayers much better than scammers).

====
Deja Vu!
====

I agree with you about Tyria and Cantha. I have to disagree with your summary of Nightfall, though. While it's true a good chunk of it is desert, I think (up to the Desolation) the scenery is nothing short of stunning.

But people will always have differing opinions on art, so I won't argue this issue too much. I believe there is just as much variety in Nightfall's deserts as there was in Prophecies altogether.

Titles concern me very little, so I won't comment on this section. I see them as a side-score to playing the game rather than something I want to max out (with the possible exception of the title that improves salvaging, since it's actually got a useful side-effect rather than just being a vanity title).

====
Closing thoughts
====

The focus of the game? I don't know. I certainly feel Nightfall (after the first time through) has become more of a chore than a pleasure to play. If you want to create more than one PvE character and earn all the skills, you have to go through the entire game... over and over. Then Factions, over and over. Now the same has happened with Nightfall. I know no one is twisting my arm to play, but if I collect anything... it's skills. And in order to collect all the skills, you have to play either to the end of each chapter, or very close to it. That means repeating the same missions, the same quests for each character. I want to cap those skills to keep my characters 'up to date', and possibly get some new armour, but if I have to follow the storyline again in order to do that, there's no fun involved.

My major demotivator for GW can basically be summed up as the necessity to finish the game for the umpteenth time just to cap skills. I've had my fun with the story! I've finished it! I liked it! But I don't want to do it 7 times. I just want to map and cap now. :/ Please please please after winning the game once just let my other characters run on ahead through outposts without having to do missions in order to get anywhere.

In closing, I like GW. I'm just losing my enjoyment from it and lack the motivation to play. It's more a chore than fun right now.

taiwf · Jan 24, 2007, 11:18 AM // 11:18

i agree with opening thread author. Certainly guildwars has improved chapter by chapter in term of feature. But it's the prophecy that give me the best experience. I still remember my guild full of player helping each other in pve and
how i was told to solo farm as monk....

If anyone ask me what is the best chapter of guildwars, i would say prophercy as it give me the best guildwars experience.

Lonesamurai · Jan 24, 2007, 11:45 AM // 11:45

Right, yet another thread about the death of Guild Wars and i for one am getting sick of it...

On the hero note, do you not realies that as with everything, things get played with far too much straight away, its a new toy and the fad quickly wears off, and besides you get the first heroes so quickly that most stick with them for the starter island, not to mention the point that you need to use them for specific missions/quests aswell

Chet Ingram Kabak · Jan 24, 2007, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Quote:

Don't get me wrong. I like Heroes. I think they are very useful and are a good addition to the game, overall. But I think Nightfall handled their inclusion very poorly. :/

THANK YOU. This is what I have been saying all along. Everyone seems to think I am against Heros completely. I am not. I am saying the WAY they were implemented was poorly done, and needs to be re-evaluated...otherwise the problems people perceive will only get worse with time.

Quote:

In closing, I like GW. I'm just losing my enjoyment from it and lack the motivation to play. It's more a chore than fun right now.

Again, 100% agreement here...and you again make my point.

Quote:

Right, yet another thread about the death of Guild Wars and i for one am getting sick of it...

Not the death of Guild Wars, the game....but the death of it's spirit. The essence that made it what it was to begin with. Now, that may be a good thing to you, or it may not. It's not a good thing to me, therefore this thread is here to address this.

The game will go on. Whether the people who made the game what it is will continue to play it or not...that is uncertain. I just think that it would be a shame, given how easily some of the players' concerns could be addressed.